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« Street Fighter III: 3rd Strike Online Feedback Series: Arlieth »

At ComicCon 2010, Capcom announced Street Fighter III: 3rd Strike Online Edition with no specific details. What was mentioned, however, is that should the fans have any suggestions on what should be included in this rerelease, they should inform Capcom. To aid this process, iPlayWinner will be publishing articles from notable members of the community on what they would like to see from this new edition of 3rd Strike. Please share your thoughts in the comments section, both in direct response to our ideas and to include your own as well. And be sure to return to iPlayWinner each week and let us know how your opinions have shifted, if at all, during the course of this series! 

I have been a 3rd Strike player since the game's release in 1999, attending tourneys for almost a decade starting at Southern Hills Golfland, then at Family Fun Arcade in Granada Hills, CA during its 3s mania (peaking with the arrival of the Japanese during one of the Cal Poly Pomona Evolution years). WAY back in the day, I wrote 80-100k-sized character guides on GameFAQs.com, on Makoto, Ibuki and Yang. I have also been a United States representative for Super Battle Opera with teammates Michael "Pyrolee" Fauson and Frank "Frankie3s" Melendez, as well as an SBO Qualifiers organizer. Personally, I would like for nothing else than another shot for this game to make it onto a net-playable platform on current-gen systems.

Street Fighter III: Online Edition may very well be the last chance this game gets for a re-tuning. I don't believe it requires a graphical overhaul, as much of the game's charm lies in its smooth-as-silk 60fps animation. In fact, 3rd Strike can be rebalanced without adding any additional game mechanics, nor does it need completely new attacks. A rebalance should aim to achieve three goals: 

1: "Compress" the tiers to make matchups more viable; no match should exceed 4:6 in theoretical difficulty. 3:7 matchups and worse should definitely be re-examined.

2: Retain all elements and mechanics unique to 3rd Strike, without adding novel elements such as Super Armor. Creative use of existing mechanics is allowed.

3: Make all three Super Arts equally suitable for consideration for each character. 

Also for consideration would be to adjust hitbox properties to even the playing field, especially in cases where a character who already has an advantageous matchup gains an unintended advantage because their opponent cannot hit them with attacks that hit everyone else. The best example is Q vs. Chun-Li, where his Dashing Head attacks are completely useless against a crouching Chun-Li, and is already his most difficult matchup. This would be a method to achieve Goal #1. 

The other universal change I would suggest may be controversial: Increase all projectile damage by 25%. Fireballs are already quite useless except for EX versions due to parrying, and should really have more reward to balance out the higher risk that they have in this game. I'm sure old-school SF players would probably agree on this one. This automatically buffs the following characters: Ryu, Ken, Akuma, Chun-Li, Oro, Urien, Remy, Twelve and Ibuki. The only exception to this might be Urien's Metallic Spheres, considering that they're probably the most useful fireball in the game. 

In making all three Super Arts viable for each character, actually adjusting the Super Art itself may not be the best way to do it. For example, Ryu's Shin Shoryuken is a pretty decent SA as-is. However, Shinkuu Hadouken and Denjin Hadouken take up the lion's share of SA selections. Simply adding +1 or +2 frames of hit advantage to his f+MP overhead vs. crouching opponents would make it extremely useful, and it still wouldn't be as impossible to defend against compared to Dudley's f+HK overhead. 

I know a lot of people would like to see 3rd Strike stay exactly the way it is. I still enjoy playing it. But despite the parrying mechanic, it still has a very clear top-tier trio of Yun/Ken/Chun that consistently wins in tournaments, and it's a big factor in 3rd Strike not coming back to Evolution. I'd like to see it on the big stage again. 

Preliminary Changelist 

    Chun-Li


  • b+HP: -2 Active hit frames.
  • This attack's hit frames last long after the punch itself has executed, beats many pokes, and is super-cancelable.
  • Hyakuretsu (Lightning) Kicks: +3 Recovery frames.
  • Chun can currently 'trap' an opponent by forcing them to parry kicks, then throwing them when the kicks end. It is impossible to react to the throw attempt.
  • Chun can still bait her opponent into attempting to tech her throw and instead use EX Spinning Bird Kick.
  • Kikouken: 25% increased damage.
  • Houyoku Sen (SA2): Reduce to 1x stock and increase to max meter length.
  • Great damage, reset/juggle options and fireball invincibility, as well as being extremely easy to link or cancel into.
  • Kikoushou (SA1): Increase to 2x stock.
  • Compared to SA2, the Kikoushou does relatively little damage and is extremely easy to red-parry, actually making it riskier to use to kill someone with chip damage.
  • Tensei Ranka (SA3): Vacuum property, larger hitbox to hit crouching opponents
  • Would actually make it useful for anti-air situations and for general ground use. Currently has very little useful range and is easily air-parried. Adding juggle would allow her to use her close HK for anti-air option select setups.
  •  

    Yun

     

  • Zenpou Tenshin: Grab places Yun further away from opponent (limits followup options like relaunch or target combo)
  • Gen'ei Jin (SA3): Increase meter to max length (but has the same time duration), possibly additional damage scaling.
  • You Hou (SA1): Juggle air-recovering opponents
  • Sourai Rengeki (SA2): Could use 3x stock of medium meter or 2x stock of small meter.
  •  

    Ken


  • I don't think he needs base character changes.
  • Shoryu Reppa (SA1): More damage on its aerial hits.
  • This would make it more viable as a juggle, such as after an LP Shoryuken or a crossup EX Tatsumaki.
  • High-level players could kara-cancel into it for better range anyhow.
  • Shinryuken (SA2): Needs *something*. I just don't know what.
  •  

    Makoto


  • Neutral Throw: Removal of invincibility frames during recovery (glitch)
  • Oroshi: HP version should not knock down (simply add additional hitstun)
  • Make f+MP a super-cancelable attack.
  • Increases the effectiveness of Tanden Renki and Seichuusen pressure.
  • Abare Tosanami Kudaki (SA2): Reduced stun damage.
  • To prevent 100% stun combos on characters with standard Stun ratings (Akuma and Remy would still be subject to 100% stun).
  •  

    Dudley


  • Cross Counter: Inflict damage even if he suffers fatal damage from an attack.
  • It seems rather sad that Dudley actually goes through with the attack animation yet inflicts zero damage if his damage is fatal. This is a minor suggestion, really, as Dudley's basic character design is already great.
  • Rolling Thunder (SA2): Increased Damage.
  • For a 1x Stock super, it should do a LOT more damage. His other two supers are used quite often.
  •  

    Ryu


  • f+HP: -4 frame startup, +3 hitstun.
  • f+MP: +1 frame hit advantage on f+MP
  • For linking SA2 (Shin Shoryuken) afterwards on crouching opponents ONLY. (SA2 is the least-used super)
  • c.MK: -1 frame startup
  • Hadouken: 25% increased damage.
  •  

    Yang



  • Zenpou Tenshin: grab places Yang further away from opponent
  • Prevents re-launch loop. His Mantis Slash reaches far enough anyhow.
  • Senkyuutai: More block-stun and a smaller vulnerable hitbox.
  • (similar to Yun's Tetsu Zankou, which goes under most c.MPs!) to compensate for its lack of speed. (Actually, compared to Yun's shoulder, it sucks. It's slower, more vulnerable to be interrupted, more vulnerable on block, and much harder to juggle after with.)
  • Kai'hou (Teleport): -3 frame recovery.
  • EX Mantis Slash: Fix the bug that causes the 5th hit to whiff.
  • Raishin Mahhaken (SA1): Inflict much more stun damage (40pts?).
  • It's a 1x stock attack, is underutilized, and causes a spinning effect on its victim. (Compared to Gen's Shitenshuu strike in SSF4 that inflicts temporary damage; in 3s, stun recovers gradually in a similar manner)
  •  

    Ibuki


  • EX Kazekiri: Additional hitstun or the ability to parry on the way down after a successful hit.
  • Currently leaves her too vulnerable even on successful hit.
  • (SSF4 solved this issue by making it a guaranteed knockdown instead.)
  • Kasumi Gake: MK and HK versions dash a pass-through ability identical to her standard dash. Also remove the defense penalty.
  • She takes a lot of damage already!
  • Kunai: 25% increased damage.
  • Yami Shigure (SA3): 2x stock and additional stun.
  • Yoroi Doushi (SA2): -2 Startup frames for grab activation.
  •  

    Hugo


  • Meat Squasher: Faster speed on MK/HK versions.
  • Megaton Press (SA2): More invincibility frames.
  • Monster Lariat: Should have a cancel option similar to his Hammer Frenzy if Kick is held down. Still has a 'skidding' animation.
  • Lariat does not hit crouching opponents, period.
  •  

    Alex


  • Power Bomb: Reduce distance or height that Alex bounces away from opponent.
  • Hugo can catch up to his opponents quickly after his 360 grab and has much better pokes. Alex is in a much worse position after a successful Power Bomb.
  • c.MP or c.MK: Should be cancelable.
  • f+HP: Cause air-juggle state.
  • This gives him a greater anti-air threat and could be used in conjunction with d+HP to mix up parry-timing with equally devastating results. d+HP also causes air-juggle state but has completely different parry timing.
  • Doing this also buffs Stun Gun Headbutt (SA3) by giving it a combo opportunity.
  • Hyper Bomb (SA1): -1 Frame startup.
  • Boomerang Raid (SA2): Vacuum on hit.
  • Note that this would make his Sleeper Hold (b+HP on back-turned opponent) a guaranteed setup and may be too powerful. On the other hand, it would be ridiculously cool-looking.
  •  

    Q


  • Dashing Head Attack: Hits all crouching characters.
  • Currently misses Chun, Oro, others when crouching.
  • Dashing Leg Attack/Overhead Attack: Reduce startup frames.
  • c.HP: Should be cancelable.
  • It's already a slow move, has limited utility, and Q currently has no low-hitting cancelable attacks. It would also allow him to threaten people with more options at his command-throw range and retain a back-charge at the same time.
  • Total Destruction (SA3): Faster startup on his QCF+P/K attacks.
  •  

    Sean


  • MP-HK Target Combo: Make super-cancelable.
  • c.MK: -1 frame startup
  • c.HK: -1 frame startup
  • Shoryu Dunk: Either revert to 2nd Impact version or reduce startup frames and increase range.
  •  

    Akuma


  • f+MP: Remove throw invincibility.
  • This, like Makoto's neutral throw invincibility, is just one of those gimmicky glitches that makes zero sense.
  • Gou Hadouken: 25% Increased Damage.
  • Shakunetsu Gou Hadouken: 25% Increased Damage.
  • Zankuu Gou Hadouken: 25% Increased Damage.
  • This will be interesting.
  •  

    Necro


  • Drill Kick: Increase speed.
  • At least on LK version. HK version is okaaaay though you can low/high red-parry the 2nd hit for free damage.
  • Rising Cobra: Upper body and throw invincibility
  • To compare with his Flying Viper overhead (which dodges low attacks). This makes it similar in utility to Dudley's Short Swing Blow, though you can't connect a super afterwards.
  •  

    Remy


  • Light of Virtue (High/Low): 25% Increased Damage. This alone is a huge buff for Remy.
  • c.HK: Make into a one-hit move that Target Combos into a second c.HK attack (the 2nd part).
  • Blue Nocturne (SA3): Super flash should only occur after hit activation.
  •  

    Elena


  • Mallet Smash: LK version does 1 hit instead of 2.
  • Creates parry-mixups
  • c.MK: Special-cancelable.
  • Spin Scythe: Less startup frames.
  • Allows her to combo without requiring EX meter. This is her biggest handicap.
  •  

    Urien


  • Change his spelling to Julien! Ha, I kid.
  • b+HK: Less recovery frames.
  • He is vulnerable to being hit even if it connects.
  • Metallic Sphere: Increase damage by 25%.
  • This is actually REALLY SCARY, considering that this is probably the most effective fireball in the game.
  • Tyrant Slaughter (SA1): Projectile Invincibility
  • I think it HAS this already? Can someone doublecheck?
  • Jupiter Thunder (SA2): Increase stun damage by 2pts per hit.
  •  

    Oro


  • LK-MK Target Combo: Allow canceling afterwards.
  • This helps him capitalize on crossups if he doesn't know what side he'll be on.
  • Nichirin Shou: Increase damage by 25%.
  • Jinchuu Watari: Increase horizontal hitbox.
  • His chicken hop kick combo (the 6-hit series) should work on EVERY character in the game, including Yun, Yang and Hugo. Yun and Yang are already bad matches for him, anyhow.
  • Kishin Riki (SA1) Make the grab activate with a QCF+P instead of P by itself.
  • This would allow him to MP launch or tick into it while retaining all of his normal attack options.
  •  

    Twelve


  • Air-Dash: Tap down to cancel.
  • b+MK: Make into a jump-cancelable launch.
  • This gives him much-needed combo setups. XNDL and XFLAT should combo off of it. XNDL will probably do reduced damage because of the distance (I believe XNDL does more damage at point-blank). This is fine, as XNDL can be comboed from c.LP -> AXE.
  • This will also give Twelve an anti-air option-select if the kick is parried: He can super-jump cancel into XNDL.
  • A.X.E.: EX version should vacuum and be cancelable on each hit.
  • This is really a carryover of Necro's Electric Blast mechanic.
  • N.D.L.: Increase damage by 25%.
  • D.R.A.: Knockdown on hit.
  • Normal Torpedo attack is practically suicidal compared to everyone's dive kicks and cannot be comboed after. He gets no reward for a high-risk dive when every other dive-kick in the game pressures, knocks down or combos afterward. Open to additional suggestions for this move.
  • X.C.O.P.Y.: Allow EX moves during morph state (costs 15% Timer)
  • Would provide a decent risk-reward ratio.
  • X.F.L.A.T.: Should hit identically on both grounded and aerial opponents.
  • Currently has reduced damage on airborne opponents.
  • Can be comboed into from a launching b+MK.

Read Previous Entires in the 3rd Strike Online Feedback Series:  Haunts | Mr. Jared 

Reader Comments (51)

one idea i have, maybe give akuma the ability to have ex moves

August 23, 2010 | Unregistered CommenterShitstainedshorts

please leave 3 strike in the same form , i think its the best. they can do to the game

August 23, 2010 | Unregistered Commenterkefka

Replace Gill with magus1234 in a thong.

August 23, 2010 | Unregistered CommenterReno

initially, i was part of the many that thought the game was perfectly fine as is. and to some extent, i still feel that way.

but we're trying to reintroduce this game to the fighting game community of today. they've SEEN this game by now and already have their own preconceptions about how it works. there's a reason that people complain about chun li, yun, makoto, etc. it isn't just a whole bunch or random scrubs that don't know what they're doing. the characters of the top tier have some very distinct advantages that need to be addressed. the lower tier characters also need buffs. there's always going to be some sort of complaining though. it isn't possible to get it 100% right. but we shouldn't be scared to try to get close.

these "purist" players that want their classic 3S should be given their ability to play it should they wish. in a sense, that will always be the "real" 3S.

but as of now, i'm very interested in seeing what can be done to change this game and see what happens. there is no need to get so defensive about keeping it as is. without experimentation, many great things would have not come to pass... but many horrible things come from it as well.

maybe a tweaked 3S could be great. maybe it could be horrible.
but i want to find out. i don't want to be a wuss so adverse to change.
we're still much to young to be set in our ways. x]

August 23, 2010 | Unregistered CommenterAlex

God damn I read that first paragraph and it made me feel like an old fart >_<

But I guess that makes Tom an old fart too so, yay! ^_^

I've been reading all of IPW's articles on 3s online wish list (changes & no changes) and I just think its awesome IPW gives a fuck about what everyone thinks about 3s online...Even the old farts :)

So huge thanks to IPW! Thank god I can turn to you when I feel like SRK has let me down :)

August 23, 2010 | Unregistered CommenterShogo

This article obviously took a lot of time and effort to write. Thanks for creating it.

August 23, 2010 | Unregistered CommenterDarry

Shogo! We're all getting old. X(

August 23, 2010 | Registered Commenterhaunts

I agree completely. I recently found a old used copy of Street Fighter Anniversary Collection, and have been playing 3s with a bunch of my friends.

We all are into SSFIV, but there's something different about 3s. Just the way it handles, the parrying mechanic, the ease (with some characters) of using their super arts, it's just awesome.

That being said, even at our level, there is stuff that definitely could use some looks. My friend being a Ken player, and me trying to pick up Twelve (which is not easy), there has definitely been some one-sided matches, and not in a good way.

I personally think that 3s is just THIS close to being a classic, classic fighting game, maybe not as popular with the general masses, but definitely being accepted by fighting game fans as one of the best out there.

Capcom can definitely use this chance with Online Edition to achieve that goal. It's definitely possible. Balance some stuff out, compress the tiers, and you'll have an exciting, fast game that people can have tons of fun playing, and still is crazy awesome at a competitive level. Think about it Capcom.

August 23, 2010 | Unregistered Commentermisterpope

Epic. I dunno what I want to see. I'd be happy either way i suppose, but that's a pretty epic and well thought out series of changes.

August 23, 2010 | Unregistered CommenterDaBallinHammah

I know this will probably change the game WAY too much, but what about the idea of making projectiles (besides the Dudley and Sean taunts) non-parry-able?

August 23, 2010 | Unregistered CommenterBlueLambency

I totally agree that all of this should be done. in a new game. Called....4th..collision.

Arlie juice wants the sacred seal of 3S broken?? Say it aint so :(

August 23, 2010 | Unregistered Commenterbooerns

Every top player on SRK so far has said no changes. Anyone who wants change is most likely garbage at 3S. If you don't like 3S then don't play it, go play another game. Don't ruin 3S with pathetic and weak changes. We don't need another HD Remix thank you.

August 23, 2010 | Unregistered CommenterBayFlash

wow great write up. I also feel that Alex needs better pokes that are not only super move cancelable but special moves cancelable. The fireball is under used so why not turn up the damage on the move. I figured Chun li hit box onher low forward is next to nothing in terms of me trying to hit her with Q or Zlex and the game may need some changes on second and these suggestions may be just right. Great Job 5/5 A for effort

August 23, 2010 | Unregistered Commentercuttyb

Don't change anything, just leave the poor game alone :(

August 23, 2010 | Unregistered CommenterbottledOJ

i love what you guys thought about in this. makes it interesting and fun if alex and other chars had these things, but in all reality. i hope it doesnt change. or if they had a "remix" version so you could play both. this would be really really fun.

on another side note, it would be nice if alex had close mk any where on screen, and foward+mk would be his normal far mk. when alex is standing he has nothing in that area. (just for funz)

August 23, 2010 | Unregistered Commenterrsone

I'll admit that I'm a part of the "don't change a thing" camp, but I do understand people being frustrated by the top tier. Alex has a point--purists should be able to have their Third Strike and those new to the game should have a more "balanced" version. I know that we don't want to see the community split--there are way too many divisions as it now stands anyway, but given the success of Super Street Fighter 4, Third Strike on current gen systems would be the icing on the cake.

August 23, 2010 | Unregistered CommenterNinja Bob

I feel that Arlieth knows what he's talking about. All of the changes make perfect sense. I'm a bit reticent about the 25%+ projectile power up but I can't really see it as a bad idea. In 3s if you parry most projectiles it's no big deal if a couple slip through. If hey were a bit more of a threat then it'd force people to step their parry game up. I also agree on making the others SAs usable.

August 23, 2010 | Registered Commenter00000000

Just leave an arcade perfect (version A) mode for those of us who'd like to keep playing the same game they play at arcades.

August 24, 2010 | Unregistered Commenterd3v

I completely agree with the changes, good job.

August 24, 2010 | Unregistered CommenterKexx

Arlieth, you are crazy!
Don't touch this game!!!!

August 24, 2010 | Unregistered CommenterMimoza

thanks for the input tom,as a fan of alex i can't say i wouldn't be disappointed if the changes you listed(even if only a couple)were not implemented.though capcom may not choose the route of balancing i enjoyed the read and thinking about the possibility

August 24, 2010 | Unregistered Commenterpierre.m

I've noticed there's two distinct camps when it comes to fighting games. Those play certain characters on a strict basis to win and those that simply their favorite characters and just play to enjoy the game. Most of the people against updating SF3 fall in the catergory of people that play only win at tourneys and most likely use Chun Li and Yun all day. The thing is though, look at the numbers of sold units of SF4 versus the number of people that show up at EVO and tourneys. The numbers aren't even close. Being such, CAPCOM makes games to make money. It would be a wise move on their part to update the game since it has such a bad reputation as being a 3 character fighting game. If they re-balance it, new comers would give it another glance, thus making them more money. Honestly though it's funny seeing "pros" getting all bent out of shape since they might have to learn more than just hit confirming a low MK into a super to win matches.

August 24, 2010 | Unregistered CommenterThatguy

Shinryuken should revert to the New Generation version: HUGE suction, 2 stocks, big damage.

August 24, 2010 | Unregistered CommenterCarmine

This game needs changes. Otherwise 3S will stay dead.
No nerf to Chun's c.mk hitbox?

August 24, 2010 | Unregistered CommenterCody

I just pray that they dont add any shortcuts in the game like in SF4

August 24, 2010 | Unregistered Commenterfermbiz

Why do people insist on using this idea the game will "stay dead", or "live again" Or any of that. The game is what it is- people will play a port or not, but it's NOT going to thrust the game into some new resurgence where all the casuals and scrubs flock to it like it was sf4 or something... there will be no second life or no stronger death, regardless of if there are changes or not. Lots of people bought the MvC2 port, but it's not like the community has received this huge jolt that brought the game/community back in the spotlight for any more than about 5 minutes..overall the community and scene for that game are about the same...
Yes it's true that the # of tourney players vs casual masses is miniscule. But 1) you're crazy if you think the only people that don't want it touched are pros (seriously? lol), and 2) you're also crazy if you think that those scrubs and casuals are making their buying decision on this game based on whether or not balance, move properites, hitboxes etc are tweaked... I would say at least 95% of the people I know that bought SF4 because they causally played SF2 like everyone else in the world (i.e. aren't hard core fighting game players) have never even heard of 3S, or hadn't before SF4. Most of "the masses" where all this potential money will come from will be getting it because of the name or because SF4 introduced them to youtube videos of 3S... you think all these people are really thinking that hard about hit boxes, movie properties, and small damage tweaks?? lol
The contingent that is adamant about keeping the game the same, is the exact same as those who want the small changes... people who are already into the game and have been playing it forever. The same group which (i agree) is tiny compared to the masses. I understand why the argument continues there, but the idea that what the average "play a few times, then move on to crackdown 2" casual will do as far as buying or not has ANYTHING to do with this change it/don't argument is just ridiculous.

August 24, 2010 | Unregistered Commenterwhy

I don't want any changes made to 3s when it comes to character specifics, but I semi agree with re-balancing the game. I feel if you change all the characters then it's not 3s.

August 24, 2010 | Unregistered CommenterFifty-50 Trap

"there's a reason that people complain about chun li, yun, makoto, etc. it isn't just a whole bunch or random scrubs that don't know what they're doing. the characters of the top tier have some very distinct advantages that need to be addressed. the lower tier characters also need buffs. there's always going to be some sort of complaining though. it isn't possible to get it 100% right. but we shouldn't be scared to try to get close."

You know what that reason is, right? It's because those people are too damn lazy to figure out how to deal with the best characters in the game. No matter what these bums would have you believe, there are more than two viable characters in this game. Depending on your definition of viable, there are 8-12 characters that are good in 3s. That's comparable to many other games. But because you actually have to *gasp* adapt your game to fight the best characters, and not do whatever crap you want to do, some people have a problem. That players mime this weak argument reflects poorly on them as competitors, not on 3s.

"but as of now, i'm very interested in seeing what can be done to change this game and see what happens. there is no need to get so defensive about keeping it as is. without experimentation, many great things would have not come to pass... but many horrible things come from it as well.
maybe a tweaked 3S could be great. maybe it could be horrible.but i want to find out. i don't want to be a wuss so adverse to change.we're still much to young to be set in our ways. x]"

It isn't about being scared about anything. It's just being realistic about what's possible to achieve given the limited budget and resources capcom is going to allocate to a 3s remake. I'm sure many, if not all, 3s players would be excited about a true 3s sequel, given a budget and effort to make it a full-fledged game release with all the goodies that come with a full effort (more characters/moves, improved visuals and presentation, more gameplay refinements, etc). Give us Street Fighter 3:4th hit, not 3rd strike ver. C.

But that isn't what we're talking about here. We're talking about a rerelease of a game that is 10 years old on a comparatively shoestring budget. Same graphics. Same characters. Same animations. Same features. And that's why I have to just laugh when I read stuff that "3s will stay dead if you don't change anything." Bull. Shit. If you think 3s is dead now (and you'd be wrong), then nothing they do in 3s online would EVER change that. You just aren't going to set the world on fire with a game like this, no matter how good it is. The main goals of 3s online will be a) satisfying a niche market that loves 3s and wants to play using their current console and b) making it cheap enough for an impulse buy for casual players. Why not try and make your niche fans happy, since they're the only ones who will care about the actual game mechanics? People acting as though only a few changes here and there will make 3s take over the world need a reality check.

I'm sure Arlieth means well, but unless Capcom puts forth a true effort (that includes an arcade release), any remixed version of 3s will just be a sideshow oddity, much like hdr. If experimentation is what you want, then Capcom could just put in an expanded system direction page. By allowing people to play with things like meter length and how many stocks on supers, game designer-wannabes could do their thing, while the rest of the world continues to play 3s.

or tl:dr version: what bayflash said + what "why" said

August 24, 2010 | Unregistered CommenterTRobb

Part 2 of my stupid-long post aka "hella fools on blast" edition. Nothing personal fellas.

"Alex has a point--purists should be able to have their Third Strike and those new to the game should have a more "balanced" version. I know that we don't want to see the community split--there are way too many divisions as it now stands anyway, but given the success of Super Street Fighter 4, Third Strike on current gen systems would be the icing on the cake."

Funny you should mention cake. There's thing about having your cake and eating it too that would apply to what you said. By definition putting out a remixed 3s would split the 3s community, in exactly the same way as hdr did. Anybody who wants to play people in 3s would be bullied into playing the remixed edition, since that's what everybody else is playing. The only 3s players left would be arcade players and people who want to go to japan. This is a bad outcome, particularly if they mess up remixed 3s. If you don't believe me, just ask the ST players.


"Most of the people against updating SF3 fall in the catergory of people that play only win at tourneys and most likely use Chun Li and Yun all day. The thing is though, look at the numbers of sold units of SF4 versus the number of people that show up at EVO and tourneys. The numbers aren't even close. Being such, CAPCOM makes games to make money. It would be a wise move on their part to update the game since it has such a bad reputation as being a 3 character fighting game. If they re-balance it, new comers would give it another glance, thus making them more money. Honestly though it's funny seeing "pros" getting all bent out of shape since they might have to learn more than just hit confirming a low MK into a super to win matches."

There is too much ignorance in these words to compute. For trying to leverage the success of SF4 to prove a completely unrelated point, for trying to somehow tie changing 3s to an economic argument for Capcom, and for trying to say that the best 3s players only win because they can hitconfirm to super, all I can say is:

"Mr. Madison, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."

August 24, 2010 | Unregistered CommenterTRobb

@Trobb

Watch a 3S tourney and come back. Maybe then your over inflated opinion might actually matter. You can't simply adjust when a character has such blantant priority over any move you throw out (Chun Li). You can't go against the written code of the game. A character whose super can fill in about 5 seconds is at an obvious advantage to every character in the game (Yun). No matter how good you are, you can't beat whats written in the code of the game. When EVO stops carrying a game on the tourney list, there's a problem. Especially when the slot is replaced by Melty Blood.

Seriously, I want the time I wasted reading your essay back. All you said was "LOL. Get better." Even Seth Killian himself has admitted the shortfalls of 3S, and he works for CAPCOM...It's like you're floating in denial land.

August 24, 2010 | Unregistered Commentercaptainjigsalot

Wow, such hostility. Did you see the cooperation cup tournament that went down last week? Where MOV, the best Chun-Li on earth, lost to someone who wasn't chun or yun (Akuma ftw)?

You're exaggerating the strength of Yun and Chun greatly. Yes they are the best characters. Yes they have really strong aspects. But if you are playing against a good player using a viable character, you won't get a free win against them for picking chun/yun no matter how good cr.mk is or how quick you build meter for genei jin. Some people, though, have the illusion that if you tweak those things, they will magically be able to compete with good players. As if the only reason they lose is because of chun and yun's built-in advantages. And that's just ridiculous.

Good players can and do "beat whats written in the code of the game," all the time. Just watch Rom and Mr. Naps if you don't believe me. If you don't know who those guys are, then you don't know 3rd strike.

"When EVO stops carrying a game on the tourney list, there's a problem. Especially when the slot is replaced by Melty Blood."

What does this have to do with anything? Are we expected to believe that EVO staff makes rational decisions about what games get in?

"Even Seth Killian himself has admitted the shortfalls of 3S, and he works for CAPCOM...It's like you're floating in denial land."

Who said 3s was perfect? Who said it was perfectly balanced? 3s is no holy grail. But neither is any remixed version of the game, which probably will do more harm than good when all's said and done.

August 24, 2010 | Unregistered CommenterTRobb

Yes... feel the hate, join the dark side~

Let's get this straight: By implementing these changes, it will no longer be 3s. That doesn't really bother me. What does bother me is that this game will most likely never see the light of day again at Evo unless something is done about it. A lot of people assume it's the newbs that want these changes, inexperienced players that don't understand the matchup. What they don't understand is that there's also been a lot of frustration from all of the non Yun/Ken/Chun players about how seriously broken Yun and Chun are. Well, Chun especially. Even Yun's not that bad. She's got 8-2 matchups. Really. And seeing how over half of top 8 at tournaments like Evo tend to be Chun and Yun, you can assume that these are not scrubs playing these characters, and yet at the same time you have to acknowledge that the people that they beat are not scrubs either. There *are* pros that would like to tweak the game.

Anyhow, don't fret; this changelist was actually designed to spark discussion on the matter. By putting out some actual material changes, I was hoping to get some people to re-examine their own characters. But I know that all of us here are really coming from the same place: We all love the game.

August 24, 2010 | Unregistered CommenterArlieth Tralare

"Funny you should mention cake. There's thing about having your cake and eating it too that would apply to what you said. By definition putting out a remixed 3s would split the 3s community, in exactly the same way as hdr did. Anybody who wants to play people in 3s would be bullied into playing the remixed edition, since that's what everybody else is playing. The only 3s players left would be arcade players and people who want to go to japan. This is a bad outcome, particularly if they mess up remixed 3s. If you don't believe me, just ask the ST players."

@Trobb I'm pretty sure that given the choice between the two versions of Third Strike the majority of players would choose "Old School" Third Strike over any remixed version. The newer players would play the remix for a minute--but they would want to compete against the best players and that means playing the original.

August 24, 2010 | Unregistered CommenterNinja Bob

I don't think TR was implying the adaption would be easy. Just stating that's what you have to do if you want actually have a fighting chance during the match up. There's no other choice. *Sigh* I love 3s, I really don't think things like FB make or break the game. I wouldn't mind the balancing. But the extra stuff I could do with out.

August 24, 2010 | Unregistered CommenterFifty-50 Trap

@Arileth, I understand perfectly what your saying, but I have to question your logic a bit. I follow a lot of Japanese tourney and my question to is, do the Japanese players really complain about it? I play Makoto mainly. I main Dudley before that, and lots of know how with other characters. Basically I play the entire cast, and I honestly don't really see a problem. I think there will never be a truly "balanced" game ever. It just wouldn't make sense when you look at the design aspects of the story, characters etc. I think players just need to toughen up and take there licks. I did for 5 years before I even had a slim chance at becoming a good player of the game. I went to Texas got my rear torn out of my pants and literally given back to me. Lol. But now looking back that's what made me a stronger player, and I've played in many scenes. Omaha, Ne being my first one.

Just to give some background about myself. I think if 3s were to see a drastic change, then, like SF anni and HDR key or noted players might stray away from the game, and cripple the scene. Yes Chun is frustrating but I'm sure that it's not solely based on how "good" of an character she is.

August 24, 2010 | Unregistered CommenterFifty-50 Trap

@captainjigsalot

Thanks for the cookie cutter doofus comment. All due respect to S-Kill, but almost no serious 3s players care much about what he thinks the shortfalls of the game are.

And please, Evo dropping 3s is indicative of it being a problem game? It's almost 11 years old man. It was the oldest game in the Evo 2009 lineup. Whatever subjective criticisms you have of the game pale in comparison to the fact that its pretty fuckin hard to keep any fighting game interesting to the masses for 11 years.

As for this article, ughhhh

August 24, 2010 | Registered Commenterpherai

"watch a tournament then come back". stopped listening after this. we're making comments based on watching tournament vids instead of playing the game now? :) And.. evo dropping 3S means there's a problem? Even funnier. So...you're suggesting the reason 3S isn't at evo anymore is because of balance issues? even though aaaaaaaaaaaall those years it had a place at evo those same issues were there? Please, it got dropped because they wanted to give more time and attention to newer games and stop supporting the older consoles...

August 24, 2010 | Unregistered Commenterlol

@Arlieth: Didn't mean to derail your discussion man haha. I'm just saying, I dislike a lot of the reasons given for messing with 3s.

"What does bother me is that this game will most likely never see the light of day again at Evo unless something is done about it."

Not necessarily true. MvC2 made it back without any changes. If you could play unmodified arcade 3s on modern consoles, I'd say there's probably just as good of a chance as 3s making it back to EVO as there would be for a remixed version.

*This doesn't, of course, account for EVO staff's irrational bias against 3s, who knows what kind of excuses they will make to exclude the game.*

@Ninja Bob

I would hope you're right. But the HDR experience says differently. Why would a divided 3s community turn out any differently from the ST community? I know there are differences there, but I'm curious to see why you'd say original 3s would win out in popularity over a remix, when original ST failed versus HDR.

August 24, 2010 | Unregistered CommenterTRobb

Good stuff dude. completely agree with it. It's nice to see intelligent posts in regards to rebalancing this game. High five!

August 24, 2010 | Unregistered CommenterAnonymous

I think the fact that HDR is in evo lineup has more to do with the it being on the newer consoles and less to do w popularity. If hdr had come out on ps2 and an arcade perfect port came out on 360/PS3, we'd be seeing the arcade perfect version at evo and calling that "more popular".

August 24, 2010 | Unregistered Commenterwhy

How about fixing Ken's ability to lp srk Q two times anywhere on the screen?

August 24, 2010 | Unregistered CommenterD

Well, if it's hard to keep a game interesting for 11 years, why not change it up? :D

Also: "*This doesn't, of course, account for EVO staff's irrational bias against 3s, who knows what kind of excuses they will make to exclude the game.*" <---- VERY VERY VERY TRUE :V

August 24, 2010 | Unregistered CommenterArlieth Tralare

While I now fundamentally disagree with the idea of a re-balance (owing to reasons such as trying to create cohesion between older and newer players, and also trying to keep the absurdly intricate 3S experience consistent between console and arcade [what few remain anyway]), some of those tweaks suggested by Arlieth are interesting, though I do not agree with them all. Here are my thoughts on the tweaks suggested for the characters I understand best (Hugo, Q and Twelve).

----------------

Hugo

- Meat Squasher: Faster speed on MK/HK versions.
^^ This would actually be one of the few reasonable tweaks it is possible to give to Hugo. Hugo is a character with some of the most well-rounded design in 3S, and any buffs for him can have MASSIVE implications. It is important that Hugo remains very difficult to use properly, and this tweak to his Meatsquasher would not really have a dramatic effect on that, so it is acceptable.

- Megaton Press (SA2): More invincibility frames.
^^ Baaaaaaaaaaad idea. A considerable lack of invincibility frames is all that keeps this SA from being the super of choice for most Hugo players, and to add ANY more invincibility frames dramatically increases the usefulness of this (it is already decent, it is only held back by Hugo as a character and how much better SA1 and SA3 are). As it is, Hugo has 3 superb supers, they just happen to all be difficult to use well. Megaton is a great super with everything going for it, it's just that by design Gigas and Hammer are better/more scary. This super would need to have severely reduced damage output if it had more invincibility frames, but that would take away from the initial fear-factor of it in the first place: it is simply not worth tinkering with.

- Monster Lariat: Should have a cancel option similar to his Hammer Frenzy if Kick is held down. Still has a 'skidding' animation.
^^ I'm not really sure about this. In my mind, LK Lariat is already too fast to have this kind of property, and if it did have a skid option then what use would it serve with LK Lariat that a regular dash does not? Just meter building and inching forward? MK and FK versions would obviously be the most useful, but good players can already react to whiffed LK Meatsquashers and Hammer Frenzies (when cancelled) so this might not be too useful. Either that, or this would be too powerful: even with a skidding animation, Hugo could too easily usurp charge characters' set-ups from afar with too little work.

- Lariat does not hit crouching opponents, period.
^^ This is an overall harmless idea. It would be visually a bit weird if Hugo's Lariat whiffs vs Hugo, but I feel as a 'nerf' (or even buff? hehe) it would not be very impactful, so I can live with this.

----------------

Q

- Dashing Head Attack: Hits all crouching characters.
^^ J'agree.

- Dashing Leg Attack/Overhead Attack: Reduce startup frames.
^^ Yep.

- c.HP: Should be cancelable.
^^ This is an interesting one, I like it.

- Total Destruction (SA3): Faster startup on his QCF+P/K attacks.
^^ The thing that really lets down those attacks isn't the start-up, it's the recovery. Sure Dageki (QCF+P) is slow to begin, but it is also possible to cancel in to. Danger! (QCF+K) has decent start-up as it is. Better recovery would instantly make those attacks more threatening, and in a totally non-character-breaking way

----------------

Twelve

- Air-Dash: Tap down to cancel.
^^ Then what? Twelve returns to a normal falling state? Can he begin another Air Dash? Presumably this is only to allow him to parry after activating an AD so that he doesn't get caught by crap like Urien's Spheres and so on. Interesting idea, and it certainly wouldn't be drastically game-changing for him.

- b+MK: Make into a jump-cancelable launch.
^^ This renders Twelve's normal MK redundant doesn't it? The only significant difference between MK and B.MK would be Twelve's get-hit box which is more favourable on B.MK. Add to that that B.MK already has special and super-cancelable properties, and MK just looks pointless.

- A.X.E.: EX version should vacuum and be cancelable on each hit.
^^ Argh, EX A.X.E. is already -4 on block, if it has a vacuum effect then it would make getting command-grabbed inevitable. Agree about the cancel properties though.

- N.D.L.: Increase damage by 25%.
^^ Nice, makes his ranged and anti-air game SLIGHTLY more "dangerous", lol.

- D.R.A.: Knockdown on hit.
^^ A blocked D.R.A. would still mean death though. I think far more useful (though by no means too empowering) would be higher/further bounce-back PLUS the ability to link in to an AD, aerial A.X.E, etc.

- X.C.O.P.Y.: Allow EX moves during morph state (costs 15% Timer)
^^ Nice, this would be a subtle but useful ability that would give people that aren't Kuroda an incentive to use it more.

- X.F.L.A.T.: Should hit identically on both grounded and aerial opponents.
^^ Totally agree.

August 24, 2010 | Unregistered Commentercircle masher

@Trobb I've talked to some cats that are new to the scene and they're chomping at the bit and want to get their hands on the game--the arcade original that is. If the community splits(I don't think it will, my gut is telling me it won't and I have a large gut lol), those that are in the remix camp will wander over to the spot where the old vets are. Just like the kids that hear a kick ass remix or a sample of a slamming beat from an older song always end up seeking out the original.

Why this didn't happen with HDR, I don't know--maybe Street Fighter 4 stole some of HDR's thunder, but I can tell you that the Play and Trade here in my town was slammed with requests for the Street Fighter Anniversary Edition and mostly it was so cats could get their hands on Third Strike.

August 24, 2010 | Unregistered CommenterNinja Bob

I meant to say that ST didn't get the kind of interest from new gamers seeking the source material because there was so much hype surrounding Vanilla Street Fighter 4 at the time that it got lost in the shuffle.

August 24, 2010 | Unregistered CommenterNinja Bob

@Ninja Bob- I think the reason we didn't see that with HDR is the simple fact that the crowd goes where the comp is. The fact that it was on xbl/psn gives a huge built in audience, so unless you're a super purist, if you want(ed) to get your ST fix in, the path of least resistance is to get on HDR where all the competition is. The cycle feeds itself. There was never any 3S on psn/xbl so thats probably why you had the experience you mentioned with the play n' trade. If 3S online had already been out, 'remixed' or not, they probably would have gone with that...easy to sit and DL from home, large online audience etc.

August 24, 2010 | Unregistered Commenterwhy

Yes, let's rebalance the game for the cry babies.

August 25, 2010 | Unregistered Commenterwho?mikejones

Maybe to have a longer life span SF3 may need to rebalanced or tweaked a little bit. If they re-release the game with no improvements this game will not be at tourneys like HDR is. So if they modify the BS and boost certin things we can get a fantastic game even better than the original if possible

August 28, 2010 | Unregistered Commentercuttyb

if they do rebalance you can still just play the original. whats the big deal?

August 30, 2010 | Unregistered CommenterCCD

I like a lot of these changes, many of them have a real knowledge of how the developers were wanting for the characters. Plus we've got 10+ years of tourney play to look at things. Just wonder if there might be patches in the future if things don't quite turn out as expected.

Some suggestions:

Additionally for Remy make the Super bar stay full until the Blue Nocturne Super animation has finished, the super bar emptying might be a visual cue for the opponent.

For Dudley I would actually suggest changing Rolling thunder to an almost pure stun super, since SA3 does almost no stun and SA1 only contributes minor stun. This would help it differentiate the super from the two others, especially since its only one stock.

25% dmg on projectiles seems a bit steep atm but I suppose its possible to see how things go during playtesting.

One last thing I am hoping for is a HD redraw of all sprites from the original animation sheets. Although since I'm not sure how much investment is in this project, I'll just keep hoping. :)

Thanks for your time.

September 1, 2010 | Unregistered Commentermuskau
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