« Capcom's Seth Killian responds to Reports about Gen and Guile in Super Street Fighter 4, about putting too much stock in early balance impressions, & about Balance Theory »
FuriousRGD
In the Ask Capcom forums at Capcom Unity, Seth Killian responded to some posts from readers who questioned Gen and Guile's balance and the game's balance in general. Seth does a great job once again in answering the questions the best he can. Read on:
Forum Question:
"Gen: Only nerfs found so far, no chain combos, no Standing Medium Kick, Cancel into Hands at all. EX-Wall Dive lost some invincibility."
Quoted from a noticable change post in the SSF IV Forum.
Why does it seem like Gen and other low end characters are getting the short end of the stick, and characters like Dudley and Ibuki are going to be able to walk all over them? Please tell those of us who actually play Gen how he's getting better. I do remember you saying that everyone was getting better but it seems like this certainly isn't the case for some.
Seth Killian:
Anyway to answer the question re: Gen, he has a few new bits but probably the best of them is the much faster wall-dives. They were essentially useless in SFIV (apart from EX as escape), but now they are legit--IMO they're better than Adon's, and everytime they hit, it's free Ultra.
At any rate, the post you are quoting from SRK was written by MrWizard. I was there when he played Gen--hell I was the one who invited him to play. That said, it was not exactly a scientific in-depth anything (nor did Wizard suggest it was). More like they played around with the characters in training mode for a while and jotted down some impressions. Wizard would tell you exactly the same thing, but given the level of anticipation around this game, even casual comments cause (in approximately 100% of cases) widespread overreaction.
They'll be plenty of time to yell about how your favorite didn't get the same stuff as somebody else's favorite after you've actually played the game, so please just bear with us and let's all play and experiment together before we decide what's broken, unfair, etc. ok? Seem fair?
I love discussing specifics but a big part of the fun with any new SF game is exploring and learning things for yourself. When MrWizard was up here last week to play the final build, he was asking me a ton of questions about specifics, even while he was playing at the same time. I gave MrWizard exactly what I give you guys--some basic info that leads in a direction or explains some of the thinking, but I don't tell him frame data, or the exact properties of a new move, etc., because discovering things for yourself is IMO one of the best parts about these games.
In addition to discovering on your own being fun, it also leads to debate, experimentation, and people coming up with new and interesting approaches to the game. If you start getting into too many specifics too far in advance, people start making up their minds about what's good/not good before they've even touched the game, which I hope you'll agree is silly. It's almost like people think like
"THE ULTIMATE RANKINGS CHART IS HERE: Do not bother playing the game, or even trying the following fighters, because according to the Rank-O-Tron 3000 we plug into all our games at Capcom, your favorite character sucks."
You can say this isn't a "straight answer" but just asking a question doesn't mean anybody is obligated to answer it with all the specifics you've requested. I answer the questions I can, to the degree I can. I know that's not always enough for everyone, so I'm sorry, but try and keep things in perspective. There's a LOT of good SSFIV info out there already, but I'm not going to spoil the fun of discovering SSFIV on your own, the same way I wouldn't tell you who kills Dumbledore even if you asked.
I work very hard to get the game out in front of groups of people and smart players, and they can give you their impressions. It's not my job to dissect every mystery of the game, or tell people what the rankings are supposed to be before the game is even out. That's TBD once everybody has really had a chance to play!
About Guile:
A poster asked about Guile as well. Some reports stated that he did not get any real boosts.
Seth Killian:
You can still combo SH [Sonic Hurricane] after super, but it's not a big deal and it's difficult for Guile players to save up a full super bar anyway. Overall I'd say SH is just more versatile, and it helps him with counters from mid-close range where he can struggle most with people poking at him. Currently his best option is probably just flashkick, focus-canceled to be safe, which is expensive. Flash Explosion isn't fast enough nor does it have enough horizontal range to counter people like SH.
It's not the most dramatic new Ultra in Super, but it helps him from the range where he needs it most. The "footsies boost" (hitbox adjustments) also helps him in that same range. He's obviously strong from across the screen, so all of the changes overall are designed to give him more juice at one of his weaker ranges.
About Balance Theory, a poster wrote this:
Since the producer of SSF4 specifically said that an imbalance in inherent character abilities is a desirable state of affairs (i.e. rather than characters having different strengths and weaknesses, some are just plain strong and others are just plain weak) it gives us reason to think that that's what the game will be like. I hope to be proven wrong, but SF4 already shows such character disparity. I feel sorry for Fei Long the most even though I don't play him, simply because his game is totally different from how it "should" be.
Seth Killian:
...I've never heard anyone at Capcom say that, or more importantly, make some development decision based on that idea. The idea you seem to be near is the acceptance that having truly different styles of characters means some will be better and worse in different situations. This leads to some degree of character imbalance, which is what makes particular SF matches so interesting. Why do people feel the need to intentionally misrepresent what's going on with balance? Once again, SFIV was not only one of the best-balanced games of the current fighting crop, it's actually one of (if not *the*) most balanced game in SF history. The vast majority of matches in the game are 6-4 imbalances, which just isn't insurmountable--the better player wins those.
For instance, I was cruising around GDC with two guys from the "God of War" team that are also great SF players. We passed by an Nvidia booth running SFIV on PC. Of course there was a crowd, with one local tough guy blowing everyone away and talking trash. One of the "GoW" guys decided to take him out in the 15 minutes before the next panel. He picked Zangief and squished the bully's Ryu, so the bully (who didn't even offer to let anyone else play when he lost), said "you're not going to like THIS choice" and switched to Sagat--a very tough matchup for Zangief. Of course the "GoW" guy absolutely smashed the bully again.
What's the point here? The bully was a pretty decent SFIV player, and obvioulsy knew enough to know that--according to the rankings chart--he couldn't lose. Unfortunately that's not how it works: Rankings charts give you a 5-5, 6-4, etc. rating *for a 10-game set between two skilled players of equal strength*. That's a situation that virtually never actually happens--it's mostly an abstraction--but I constantly see people refer to the rankings chart as an excuse for why they lost, or some sort of iron-clad predictor of the future. Of course balance matters, and Capcom is committed to it (our results have been good so far), but match to match, it's your skills that pay the bills, not the numbers on a chart.
Source: Capcom Unity Ask Capcom Forum
Reader Comments (23)
I'm glad that douche of a SF4 player got pwned. I wonder who he was? Didn't give up his controller after he lost? Total Ass-Clown in my books.
I think people misunderstand that "imbalance in inherent character abilities" quote. Generally, a game would be boring if every matchup was made 5-5. Sure, it would be balanced, but we lose the element of counter-picking, which is what makes team tournaments so interesting. Should I include a Dhalsim player on my team 'cause he can counter Sagat or maybe a really good Gief player and risk the bad matchups?
Balancing a game shouldn't be about making every matchup 5-5. An interesting game has those 6-4 and 7-3 matchups, but as long as the characters' overall scores are about the same, then that's good balance. Gief is a strong example of this as he has his really bad matchups (Sagat, Seth, strong keepaway chars) but also his really good matchups (Abel, Cammy, close range fighters). If every char can achieve that strength/weakness balance, then that's good.
Someone to Seth: Whats real Guile´s diference in SFIV and SSFIV???
Seth says: "I like beach, like a rede car, like high e muscle men etc..."
I don´t know why but he never answered what is asked.
The CRAPCOM should hire someone else to be her spokesman.
It's amazing how he omits all the time to give a fuller answer, always coming to talk "you will like to play with him in SSFIV".
Is really the worst poster boy that Crapcom has had.
Lol whatever Fei still is busted and so is gen. Fighting games will always have low tiers, it's a shame though that they didn't even attempt to fix low tier at least a little bit.
BAH at this PR damage control on Guile in SSF4
I have to agree with Mr. Killian. The "tier-list" doesn't mean squat! All a tier list means is how easy it is to pick up and play that particular character IMO. My best friend is a Claw character and I am sure everyone knows he is one of the lowest tier characters in the game. He will dominate all Sagat characters and all top tier characters for that matter.
Im really concerned about guile mostly.. I have a brother that plays guile and i understand his bad match ups.. And why people dont consider him a threat, but on saying that.. I think guile is a decent character.. If played right. My bro takes on ryus, sagats, giefs, and balrogs.. all day. I think guile does need improvements though.. His ultra is the biggest concern. Its a joke. Lol. Most people i see get hit with it.. I see it coming from a mile away, probably cause i play against him everyday. And if its not at the exact moment.. It only hits three times.. and even when it does hit fully..It doesnt take that much.. If its blocked.. Its a free ultra, DURING his ultra is going. Lol. shoot.. It can be stopped mid ultra by ryu's c.mp. Lol. I am just hoping that guile's SH ultra can be linked in an easier way and is more versatile.
Honestly, Mr. Killian completely avoided the questions by giving answers that weren't asked. Its cool that Gen's wall dive has been improved, but Gen's main combo was mK to hands. I can't even count how many times i've seen it used in tournament play . Its the one thing that truly keeps Gen users in the match against some of the "higher tier" characters. Its a very important part of his offense. Him saying it was MrWizard's impression is laughable. He admits himself he was there watching. This guy is a SF player himself as well as being a Capcom employee. I'm sure he knows exactly what has been added/subtracted from every character. Even with the so called "balancing" of characters, the strong will remain strong.
Not to diminish what SKill does and has done in his attempts to build up SF, I'm glad to see other people call out the obvious PR BS. His comments on why capcom isn't redoing cvs2 were laughable, as are alot of the things he says here.
"SFIV was not only one of the best-balanced games of the current fighting crop, it's actually one of (if not *the*) most balanced game in SF history. "
This was the biggest joke in the whole response. See: Japan, FRXIII
Horrible double sweep, flash kick recovery time and priority, throw range, 1 link combos and first almost useless ultra are going to be buffered with the addition of 2nd ultra and small hitbox adjustments in footsies.
I'd like to know what would happen if a most popular character like Ryu receive same sort of stuff in SF4 or if shoryuken+ultra combo were be removed in SSF4. It wouldn't be enough amount of forums to post peoples complaints.
Capcom, very dissapointed with you dudes.
Call me cynical, but I'm not very convinced that Guile's Sonic Hurricane will be as fast as Chun-Li's Ultra 1. If it doesn't come out that fast, I can't honestly believe that it'll be a sufficient deterrent to your opponent ripping him apart at mid-range.
I'm calling that his best new combo will be Flash Kick -> FADC -> put on aviator sunglasses.
Face facts guys: Capcom's innner circle don't like Guile, Gen or Fei. Those characters are cannon fodder for the shotos. They're just a couple of levels above Dan when you get down to it. I like Ryu and Ken, but come on man. Give the other characters the tools they need to compete.
The unplayable boss character is the only one in a fighting game that's supposed to be "overpowered". The rest of the cast should be on some kind of equal footing.
I think it is very important to bring this up, cliched though it may be, but we really need to reserve judgement on the state of the game until we have actually had a chance to go in depth with it. I'm not saying that SKill wasn't dodging questions, but he is mostly just asking you to be excited for the new stuff. I for one favor our new faster wall dive Gen overlords.
Also, Dumbledore dies!? Spoiler alert man!
I wonder if Abel's roll will get better?
@ haunts will you continue to main Sagat? Cuz I think for super I may pick around until evo rolls around and then I may stay either wit Ryu or Abel due to I hate counter pickers but it seems ryu is now way weaker which sucks cuz I bait and punish with his srk into ultra
Sometimes I think, "Man, it'd be so awesome having Seth's job, playing all those games early, getting to give some direct input, being paid to talk about fighting games across the globe."
But then I read the comments on any article he's ever in and I suddenly don't envy him as much.
It's fine to have an opinion about the game's balance (though I'd argue it's still too pre-mature), but don't kill the messenger, guys.
Our community is fortunate enough to have someone who speaks directly to us as much as he does. Just because he's not acting like our hostage at gunpoint answering all our demands doesn't mean he's the badguy here.
Some of these imbalance are so clean-cut. You can argue that balance is hard, balance and diversity are inversely proportional, etc. However, it's VERY easy to say, "Can this character combo to ultra?"
This is a HUGE imbalance in SF4 and could EASILY be rectified. Allowing Fei, Guile and Claw to combo to ultra would bring them up but not too far up. These were people's biggest complaints and they are easily fixed.
@Bradido,
In my not so humble opinion, I think it's more that in the current game certain characters can pretty much kill you with one combo into Ultra which makes certain "low tier" characters like Guile have a hard time keeping the pressure and offense going because it's such a huge risk after a certain point of the match. In Super, it's apparent now that a lot of the characters that were tops in the last game now have to work a little harder to do as much damage. This means that for the other characters, their tools will be more effective and they can use them more often since there is less risk involved with offense.
I just think there is more to it than "this character has to combo into Ultra to be good" because thats not entirely true even for some of the current A-Tier characters such as Zangief. As I said before, many of these less popular characters already have the tools to be good, it's just certain aspects of the gameplay system currently dont allow them to exploit the strategies they need to use to win to their full potential.
@cuttyb,
Yeah I'll keep using Sagat. I spent almost two years learning match ups with that guy, so I cant just throw that all away. That said, I'll def be holding auditions for a secondary once Super comes out. :)
have too much data early never hurt GGXX games and yes most of the time the data does support whos going to bad or shows going to be good. We are smart players and can translate data to many things. BTW GG has been the most balanced series for some time.
@haunts
Yeah, of course it's more than that but the point I was making is while balance is difficult, there are some easy answers. When you look at top tier chars like Ryu and Sagat, who are solid outside of being able to combo to ultra, and then you look at low tier characters, who are not that good AND cannot combo to ultra, the option for an easy, balanced buff seems clear.
Haunts- I think it's interesting that those were the actual changes made/impression you got- because that seems to be the OPPOSITE of how Capcom initially said the balance issues were being worked out. I seem to remember Seth in particular saying something to the effect of- It's not that the overly powerful characters are going to get nerfed, but everyone else is getting buffed up to compete.
Not that it bothers me either way- but it seems like from what I've been hearing, there was a decent amount of toning down of the new characters so that the weaker characters can compete- like you were saying.
Aside from that- even though MonsterGoGo and I didn't see eye to eye last time, I totally agree with him on this one. For one thing, Seth IS a PR man employed by Capcom... it seems like just because he DOES work so hard to stay close to the community and keep everyone in the loop as much as he does, everyone feels like he's supposed to be their best friend- make whatever changes they want, and publicly address all of their questions in full detail. That's just not how it works, he's still a Capcom employee and can only say/do so much.
But I'd say what he actually says/does is pretty damn good compared to the PR you see from other game companies or companies in general. He seems to work pretty hard to make himself a presence at the most grass roots levels of the community, and that's pretty cool.. And if you'll notice, he didn't just blow off the questions without even mentioning a word, he at least addressed the fact that he's not answering everything with the full amount of info people might want. Whether you agree with his reasoning (that part of the fun is figuring things out for yourself), at least he GAVE a reason. I, for one, do agree with that reasoning though.
Back when I was a kid and WW, CE, ST and all those games were coming out, I would have been ecstatic with even a fraction of the sheer amount of info we've gotten about SSFIV had been as readily accessible back then (and communicated directly by the game companies to the fans). I don't totally agree with all of the decisions that have been made (that I know of without having played it), but I can still appreciate that some people take the time to talk to the fans and address those things, even if it's not always what I want to hear.
Ugh. I agree man. I can't name another company where I even know the name of the PR guy much less get any kind of real access to them. OK, maybe Blizzard is pretty good at communicating with the community (on their forums) but outside of them... i can't think of any. Seth Killian isn't perfect (nobody is) but he does a damn good job IMO and he really tries to answer as many people's questions and concerns as he can. Again, how many companies even do this?
Your tongues are sticking out, and they're brown.
Also, I don't call it balance if every character's fucking j.lp can beat Guile's flash kick, or that it always goes the wrong way in crossup-situations. Sonic Hurricane looks like garbage, absolutely no real combo potential and the damage is just as shit. Taking out Gen's s.mk x hands is just as stupid; that was almost his only good thing. Expect Gen next to Dan in tier lists, along with Guile of course. Even fucking Vega is better than those two as of now.
One cannot but feel a little biased about your so-called "most balanced fighting game ever" with stuff like this. Oh well, might as well play with Dudley just like everyone else.
yes, being realistic, pointing out facts, and not whining = ass licking. lol